The Greatest (Well–One of the Greatest) Returns…
By pmd on May 10, 2009 in Hip Hop |
I was still in my childish –hate all the other white dudes in hip hop– phase when Eminem dropped The Slim Shady LP. I went on to love a couple of songs on it and regularly played some of his underground non-LP records on my college radio show. I didn’t really understand Em’s brilliance, though, until he dropped The Marshall Mathers LP.
Just based on that album, you could make a case for Em being one of the greatest ever. I use several categories that I think most nerds use when ranking an MC’s all time greatness: voice, rhymes, charisma, content, and song-making ability. If you use a number system and rank rappers in each category–with 10 being the best and 1 being the worst–a score of 50 would be a perfect MC. Here is how I look at some of the greats using this system–and then realistically look at Em using the same system.
Rakim:
Voice — 10
Rhymes — 10
Charisma – 8
Content — 8
Song Making Ability — 9
Total Score: 45
Big Daddy Kane:
Voice — 10
Rhymes — 9
Charisma – 10
Content — 8
Song Making Ability — 8
Total Score: 45
Biggie:
Voice — 9
Rhymes — 9
Charisma – 10
Content — 9
Song Making Ability — 9
Total Score: 46
2-Pac
Voice — 10
Rhymes — 7
Charisma — 10
Content — 9
Song Making Ability — 9
Total: 45
Big Pun:
Voice — 8
Rhymes — 10
Charisma – 9
Content — 9
Song Making Ability — 9
Total: 45
Eminem:
Voice — 9
Rhymes — 10
Charisma – 10
Content — 9
Song Making Ability — 9
Total: 47
Now does that make Eminem the greatest of all time in my eyes? No–obviously there are lots of intangibles, but it does lead me to believe that he is hands down–top 5 dead or alive.
All of this is relevant as you listen to Relapse–Eminem’s return after a long drug-induced hiatus. Some of the things I have always questioned about Em are still there. Most notably–his beat selection. With access to any production he wants–the beats that he chooses to use totally miff me at times.
He also follows the same song pattern throughout the entire album. Sing-songy chorus, no feature, three verses–out. Almost every song is Em flirting with horrorcore while throwing one pop star after another under the bus (most notably and awkwardly–Nick Cannon and Mariah). The album is not a classic. It is not the best we have heard from Em or the best that we will hear from him. It is, however, incredibly interesting. It is always interesting to hear one of the all time greats just do him. We may not love it, but you end up listening to every word with an intense curiosity. And while his voice is slightly different/weird and the content is bizarre, his pure rhyme patterns are still insane.
It is hard to think of who is second best when it comes to word play, vocab, and patterns. It is truly watching a genius work and one day–I think we will look back at Relapse as being a pivotal part of Em’s story–for better or worse.
Either way–I will be copping it next Tuesday and I really look forward to hearing the next Relapse installment that is supposed to drop later this year.
wheres big l, nas & krs one? L would win against all of them except big pun.
guru, masta ace… are nice too
son of a goD | May 10, 2009 | Reply
i respect this rating. Relapse is a great album
A tribe called quest | May 10, 2009 | Reply
I agree about the beats, and Deja Vu (I think), sounded almost exactly like another song earlier on the disc.
Yianni | May 10, 2009 | Reply
I like EM, but this album is pretty forgettable. Here’s hoping Relapse 2 is an improvement.
Che | May 10, 2009 | Reply
100% correct rosenberg =D
STATEN iSLAND | May 10, 2009 | Reply
I think you haft to give him the “Slim Shady EP” and the “Slim Shady LP” (classic) the hype began to get out of the control and his apex (talent wise) simultaneously peaked and began to drift with the “Marshal Mathers LP”.I will say from 2003- on you could make a very good argument that he is one of the most over rated artist to ever walk the planet.
I can’t say I was expecting much from this album, cuz while most are using Em’s comeback as a platform to say he fell off, an honest assessment would conclude that he put out a wack album 4 ½ years ago with “Encore” sans 3 songs or so.
The guy is a legend, he put out a classic album (some say 2), and undoubtedly has spit some of the illest lines in the history of Hip Hop, but I think the time has finally come where his wack singles and 04-Present body of work has finial caught up to him
With this album Em comes off more like a caricature then an authentic artist. The crazy madman shtick is stale at best and wack at its worst.
How could somebody like “3am” if they they’ve listened to any of Necro’s good songs?
I’m tired of hearing reasons/excuses (not you) for some of the singles he puts out or some of the horrible songs he happens to create.
How large of a artist to you haft to become for you not to let the record company dictate what your create? Or am I just missing the inverse scale?
Once again Em’s has created a album with 3 maybe 4 good songs (“Déjà vu” is a banger,” Beautiful” is cool sans his part of the hook and “My Mom” flows with the album theme good.) along with some plain unlistenable trash
A incredible flow can’t cover for everything ,but it seems like a lot of people allow it to when it comes to Em
Respect due to your ratings system, cant really argue with it the way you set it up. I would ask tho where do, if they do at all, the actual albums themselves MC’s put out fit into the equation? Can you be the best ever if a less skilled rapper has a much better catalog then you?
——————
“It is hard to think of who is second best when it comes to word play, vocab, and patterns. It is truly watching a genius work and one day–I think we will look back at Relapse as being a pivotal part of Em’s story–for better or worse.”
————–
Truth
ILLAIM | May 10, 2009 | Reply
Here’s something to think about when talking about his beat selection the beats are not easy to rhyme on. Em’s worst is probably better then most of these current rappers best. And Relapse beats are insane. I consider him top 5 dead or alive.
console | May 10, 2009 | Reply
how do you rate biggie’s rhymes and VOICE 9 out of 10. thats what biggie was known for. especially the voice. the voice set it all off. all you needed was the uhhh and it was on. you gave pac, kane, and rakim better voice than big? you looking like the culprit who made the vibe bracket homie.
o and stop sipping the em kool-aid. nothing even remotely good about his latest work. if nick cannon plays this right he very well could knock eminem off his high horse. IF HE PLAYS IT RIGHT…
kyo | May 10, 2009 | Reply
i think 2 is gunna be better then the first
mr.glasses | May 10, 2009 | Reply
I went back and saw an interview you did with 50 when Curtis dropped. At the time you told 50 that it took time for you to like “Curtis” and think it was a overall good album. I’m wondering now if “Relapse” will go along the same path. I think its gonna be one of those albums that’s gonna grow on some people. At first listen it is kinda awkward but after maybe 5 or more listens it starts to come together. The beautiful thing about this album coming out is that its got people talking and debating, and in the end, that’s a good thing for hip-hop.
bxteacher | May 10, 2009 | Reply
em’s last 3 records have been wack. he peaked w. the marshall lp. another over rated guy from that camp is dre. same damn drum loop over ghost production for the last 10 yrs.
em is so over rated | May 10, 2009 | Reply
MAN this album is a piece of shit.
If I hear him do another song in that annoying Triumph-the-comic-insult-dog accent, I’m gonna have a fucking relapse of my own.
Em fell the FUCK OFF. Anyone who denies it is playing him or herself.
MILES D CAT | May 10, 2009 | Reply
I play it out like this: (Just Top 5)
Mid 80′s: (88 is when I started listening to Hip Hop)
1. Big Daddy Kane
2. KRS-One
3. Rakim
4. Slick Rick
5. LL
90′s:
1. Biggie
2. Nas
3. Pun
4. Pac
5. Em & Jay (Tie)
Mind you, this is just my top 5 for both decades.
My top 10 of all time is too complicated.
Too many MC’s to mention: Puba, Black Thought, Redman, etc.
You get the picture.
Turtles | May 10, 2009 | Reply
The whole debate with greatest all time isn’t really a competition i.m.o. the one that should be number one on everyone’s list for g.o.a.t. is snoop dogg. If you look at every category you can list he’s has elements to fit every single category. Sales, Longevity, Rhymes, Voice, Charisma, Hood Raps, Society Raps, Girl Raps, Party Raps, ALL kinds of Raps, Flows, Classic Albums, Freestyle ability, dude the list can go on. Prove it wrong…Every Rap fan knows any given day Snoop can get in that ass of your favorite rapper the only reason he hasn’t is because he’s that damn chill. He’s def not my fav rapper but I give it up to him every goat discussion. My fav is BIG but he can’t be put too high because other categories when it comes to GOAT.
kyo | May 10, 2009 | Reply
pmd relapse or alseep in the bread aisle. whats the verdict?
aaron rock the bells | May 10, 2009 | Reply
relapse and asleep are SO DIFFERENT..like different genres of music…
if i wanna party and relax i DEF prefer ashers record..if i wanna plan a murder or sex crime–relapse
but rhymewise asher is nowhere near em yet and that would be insane to even compare the two..em is a god..asher is an incredibly talented kid with an incredible future in my opinion
go celtics
pmd | May 10, 2009 | Reply
Yea good write up his beat selection is suspect
wickNJ | May 10, 2009 | Reply
you wildly overrate em’s voice, which is his biggest liability. a guy like big or chuck d has a naturally forceful voice. guys like eminem or b-real have weaker natural voices, but make up for it with style/unique delivery. saying that eminem’s voice is as strong as big is atrocious and saying pac (who doubled and sometimes quadrupled his vocal takes by multitracking) has a better voice than big is equally wrong.
like i was telling you on twitter, the objective measure i tell people to look for in terms of emcee voice is (1) how often dj’s scratch the voice in for vocal hooks (if the voice is dope, like prodigy of mobb deep, it gets used all the time) (2) whether the voice itself can cut through an otherwise powerful, heavily “cluttered” track (chuck d is the classic example of this, as his voice was able to cut through the sonic chaos/near riot styled tracks provided by the bomb squad…ditto for amerikkka’s most wanted era ice cube).
spirit equality | May 10, 2009 | Reply
as far as voice, i put eminem in a class with guys like the pharcyde, b-real, and the beasties…guys who add a lot of character to their voices because they lack the traditional forceful baritone that most people associate with the “classic dope emcee voice”. in your ranking system, i would rank this “character” as delivery and mark down in the voice section.
i would rate em’s voice a 6/7. if he lacked his rhyme schemes/flow (his strong suits), he would rank somewhere around mike d or booty brown’s level, competent emcees but hardly considered all time greats.
spirit equality | May 10, 2009 | Reply
i just realized you don’t have a flow/delivery category.
no wonder
so are you putting flow and delivery under voice?
i don’t think that’s a good system
that’s like combining assists and shot blocks into one category. LOL.
spirit equality | May 10, 2009 | Reply
Check this out and tell me what you think!!
NEW ARTIST!!! J VILL – LEGOS [CDQ/DIRTY/NODJ] BANGER!!!
http://www.zshare.net/audio/59853318da2b1a8e/
J.VILL | May 11, 2009 | Reply
the best artists are going to fuck with your head a little bit. Look at what Kanye did with 808s and Heartbreaks. People either love it or hate it. Same with this album.
I’m sure Eminem could have just made another Marshal Mathers LP, but really.. what’s the point? Been there Done that. As an artist, you want to challenge yourself and everyone listening in.. mad people who didn’t like Encore in the first listen, missed out on all the gems he threw in there…
If you think his new shit is wack…..sit on it for a little bit.
This is hip hop, not your quick fix pop shit. Wordup.
Hey Rosenberg, can you find out what all the rappers think about the album?
rek | May 11, 2009 | Reply
“This is hip hop, not your quick fix pop shit.”
So you’re saying Em isn’t pop at this point? Get the fuck outta here. Go tell that to every 15 year old suburban white chick with an Em poster on her wall.
MILES D CAT | May 11, 2009 | Reply
i’m not going to give my opinion about this album cause most of yall critics ain’t going to agree with me anyway…
miles d cat, i notice that you love to make comments about rappers you don’t like and what’s wack to you, but what rappers do you like? who are your favorite emcees of all time and right now?
spirit equality, i see where you’re coming from as far as voice, but i’m more of a fan of that type of voice. the “classic dope emcee voice” can be overrated. prodigy is a perfect example cause he always had the voice but he lost the flow.
and to kyo, i see where you’re coming from, but i personally would rather listen to an eminem that has fell off than a snoop that has fell off. sorry…
hey peter, you really wanna make people mad??? you get asher and cipha gets eminem (at least on the phone) on the next juan ep.
KANYE WEST’s BEATS f. JAY-Z, COMMON, and JADAKISS (Cartoon Spoof)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz7aCArZRCk
bep | May 11, 2009 | Reply
Miles D Cat.. you’re right, you can classify eminem as pop. But, you can’t say he’s not hip hop.
at the end of the day, dude is rich as hell, free to experiment and push the artform (ideal situation for any rapper), while dudes get tight and talk shit on the internet.. but know deep down their opinion doesn’t matter to anyone.
rek | May 11, 2009 | Reply
He is great but The Even Keel “Coming UP”, Atmosphere, Kidz In The Hall,
Blue Scholars all make great Music that is pur Hip Hop as well
Pho' Life | May 11, 2009 | Reply
Yo, I definitely feel the rating system. I think that’s a perfect way to judge/rate MCs. The verdict is still out on Relapse. I’m listening to it as we speak. I’m just not feeling EM this go ’round…
We’ll see.
Mike | May 11, 2009 | Reply
Oh yeah…
There is currently a heated discussion about Eminem on my article page with examiner.com. Check it out if/when you get a chance. I will be “borrowing” this rating system for a discussion on my site. thanks!
Mike | May 11, 2009 | Reply
i got to disagree with this Em shit, hes a decent rapper who could be great if he wasnt doing that stupid ass accent 90% of the time. honestly he should have a show like SNL or soemthing where he can rap his corny ass POP culture diss shit, even though hes just as POP as them, and make his funny videos and keep it moving. he hasnt made a good album since the 1st. its the same shit every album over terrible terrible beats & he needs to stop producing his own shit cause its 15 tracks of the same beat.
fresh1 | May 11, 2009 | Reply
Couldn’t agree more. I think the beats on Relapse are banging but I’m so tired of the content. I really need Em to say something, I’m tired of the pop culture references and trying so hard to be ‘outrageous and offensive’ that it’s not anymore. Just me but I find it all quite boring. Hoping he says something on Relapse 2.
Peekay | May 11, 2009 | Reply
While I don’t agree with your ranking of Eminem in “Top 5 All Time”, I thoroughly agree with you in terms on the content he does put out. As I write on my site, I saw Eminem as an unknown opening act emcee at Lyricist Lounge tour 1998 in Philly. He appeared on the classic Rawkus Soundbombing II with the gem ‘Any Man’. To this day that is my favorite Eminem song. That song was produced by Da Beatminerz.
I have heard a few tracks from Relapse. The song “My Mom” is the clear standout so far.
I understand he has a mainstream base he has to cater to, but true artists do a mix of ‘obvious hits’ and underground bangers. He’s dope, but he would have to put out more noteworthy stuff to make my Top 5 of all-time.
Dogmatic | May 11, 2009 | Reply
this album is weird as fuck, but i can’t stop listening to it for some reason. the people want the old slim shady, and evidently he’s wants to go somewhere else. love it or hate it, still one of the most unique rappers out. it would be nice for eminem to rap on other producer’s beats though. ‘stay wide awake’ is my favorite song on thhere.
aaron | May 11, 2009 | Reply
Have to agree on the previous comment about Em’s voice. I think it’s terrible, and I skip most of his tracks because of it. Not sure how you get a 9 out of that if Rakim is 10. If Em has a 9 voice, the God has 100
bigpartymaker | May 11, 2009 | Reply
rakim – all 10′s the best ever
mick | May 11, 2009 | Reply
you guys cant just judge em off of what hes doing right now when he is clearly in a weird place and not at his best
at least in my opinion
pmd | May 11, 2009 | Reply
your rating system is off. what about flow? surely one of the most important categories? marshall mathers is great no doubt. you cant take that away from him. however that was a long time ago and some of his efforts since have been just a licence to print money.
p | May 11, 2009 | Reply
my 2cents is this he earned my respect over the years ! and Rick Ross fake lv shades wearing better pay homage !
MillionDollaMindz | May 11, 2009 | Reply
how can u rate a rappers voice? What sounds cool to one person can sound aight to someone else. For instance Em’s voice in 3 a.m. is really fuckin annoying in my opinion.
mannyflo | May 12, 2009 | Reply
Eminems voice is NOT a 9. He’s doing the Triumph the comic dog voice on every song I’ve heard or putting on a Scottish accent. I don’t care what you’re saying if you use a voice like that.
First two albums I would agree with you but the 3 mostly worthless discs since then have changed my opinion entirely.
*listens to SSLP and pre 2001 guest spots*
DT | May 12, 2009 | Reply
peter i have to say you cant make excuses that hes in a weird spot, music is like sports, what have you done for me lately? and hes been mediocre at best for quiet some time. he puts out crap cause he knows people will buy it.
fresh1 | May 12, 2009 | Reply
I completely disagree that Em is one of the greatest of all time. I could go and break down his lyrics, skills, ect… but for me my issue is I don’t enjoy his albums. I don’t care how talented he is. While I enjoy certain songs from his albums, I haven’t found one of his albums that I can even stand to listen to more than half of (besides the Slim Shady EP & Infinite, which weren’t commercial releases).
So I guess my issue with your rating system for me PMD is saying Em’s song making ability is a 9. Let’s just think of all the classic Biggie songs there are and compare them to Em’s catalogue… there not even in the same league (and Biggie only had 2 albums!) and both of them get the same rank? I think there should also be a ranking for “Album Making Ability”, and Em would rank very low on that.
Bottom line, you can’t be one of the greatest of all time with the lack of catalogue depth and lackluster albums that Em has.
D | May 12, 2009 | Reply
Come on man, be real.
Realistically for Em it would be like:
Voice — 8
Rhymes — 7 (10 at his best, but he’s only at his best about 30% of the time)
Charisma – 10 (can’t deny this one)
Content — 7 (points off for pretty much all of “Encore” and all of his wack ass “Cleanin’ Out My Closet” type songs)
Song Making Ability — 8 (would be a 9 or even a 10 if he had “retired” after Marshall Mathers LP)
Total: 40
Dude is really good, but I don’t think he’d even crack my top 20. This album is better than I expected, though.
mark p. | May 12, 2009 | Reply
“music is like sports, what have you done for me lately?”
that’s only when it come to the business, but you can’t necessarily say that always.
if that the case, then you might as well say that rakim’s rating is overrated. the rakim that’s out NOW isn’t as entertaining. rakim’s last known album “the master” was a pretty boring album.
the majority of people who likes krs-one, mobb deep and wu-tang for example likes them for what they did in the 90′s, not necessarily for how they doing NOW.
in reverse, the majority of people who likes lil wayne NOW may like him for what he has doing NOW, but that doesn’t make you the best when your pre-carter/hot boyz stage your flow and lyrics wasn’t that same nor that good.
i always liked eminem’s voice cause i’m into different shit, but i can understand if you think his voice is annoying. people have said the same about canibus, busta rhymes, ceelo, and others.
aaron | May 12, 2009 | Reply
Eminem:
Voice — 7 (fuken annoying- How do you even rate Em w/ Biggie here?)
Rhymes — 9
Charisma – 9
Content — 8
Song Making Ability — 7 (Shit’s been sounding the same for the past 3 albums! Mostly, the same singles… “Celebrities are wack bullshit.”)
Total: 40
Kevski | May 12, 2009 | Reply
Yo! You’re really drinking the Asher Kool-Aid. How is it that Jay is not on the list before Em? He is so much more of a prolific MC than Em! Put the cup down and step away Rosenberg.
Kevski | May 12, 2009 | Reply
Now I know why ya’ll don’t get pussy.. too busy rating rappers. Who cares about “The greatest rapper.. greatest returns.. one of the gre..” gimme a break.. he’s dope. relapse is cool.. talk about it when the hype is over
Anom1 | May 12, 2009 | Reply
at Kevski:
Jay Z is much more of a prolific MC than EM??!!
a)American Gangster SUCKED ASS!!!
b) Jay Z was OUTDONE by EM on Renegade, the only joint they did together. Everyone in HipHop agreed and cosigned at that!!!
c) Since Jay came back after the Black Album his shit has been SUBPAR at best!!!
Get the fuck outta here with that bullshit. Stop drinkin that Brooklyn tap water!
Jdope | May 12, 2009 | Reply
Interestingly enough, I have always felt like Em’s nasal, whiny voice were one of his weakest points.
Kez | May 12, 2009 | Reply
Speaking of beat selection, what is the deal with the Primo and Em joint called Keys to the City? I do not see it anywhere on the Relapse tracklist. I was dying to hear that shit
willmatic | May 13, 2009 | Reply
1) Kudos to Anom1, cause I was fucking yesterday while playing “Must Be The Ganja” on Em’s new shit.
2) Ratings are nothing but OPINIONS not facts, so stop complaining about dude’s rating. You can post your opinions without talking shit. And you wonder why mad people keep calling yall HATERS (the most overused word of our generation)
3) I only rate rappers by creativity, and in my opinion…
Eminem is more creative talking about the same topics on his last 3 albums than just about ANYBODY in the mainstream… including Jay-Z, whom I feel is MORE overrated than Em. People been drinking Jay-Z’s Kool-aid FOREVER!!!
In relation, Outkast talks about the same things in all of their albums, but it’s their creativity that seperates them from all the other southern rappers.
The only rappers that I can say is better than Eminem are all underground.
4) Relapse is a great album, regardless of the hate and complaints. Much better than The Eminem Show and Encore, but nowhere near Slim Shady and Marshall Mathers.
5) Is it me, or did the last song “Underground” sound like he was trying to sound like he was on his first two albums?
T. Jursh | May 13, 2009 | Reply
Correction
The only rappers OUT NOW that I can say is better than Eminem are all underground.
T. Jursh | May 13, 2009 | Reply
If American Gangster Sucks Ass. Eminfem’s new disc sucks big hairy Donkey DICK!!! The shit’s a beer coaster… get the fuck outta here with that shit! With as many dope albums Jay’s had and the two the Eminfem’s had… you really even trying to compare them!? Put down the pipe!
Kevski | May 15, 2009 | Reply
BIG L, KOOL G RAP & BIG PUN
NUFF SAID
EMINEM IS GOOD, NO DOUT, BUT HE CAN’T TOUCH REALLY THE GODS
dfsaklfj | May 17, 2009 | Reply
WOW! you give em’s voice a 9 ??????
YOU REALLY ARE OFF…. DUDE HAS ALWAYS SOUNDED LIKE BIG BIRD.
em is very talented, but he makes pop sap happy records. hes got about 3 joints that you can rockm bitch please 2 being one of them.
your rating sucks.get it right
hopoff | May 18, 2009 | Reply
black thought people. BLACK THOUGHT! WHAT AM I TALKING TO MYSELF HERE!
Boy Sand | May 19, 2009 | Reply